Jayce is a member of the church in Las Vegas where he served not long ago as an Elder's Quorum President.  He is a returned missionary.  The following account was supplied to Gary and Millie Watts for use on this site.
 

This is a transcript from an interview between Jayce and his therapist, Ron Lawrence, a licensed marriage and family therapist, Community Counseling Center, Las Vegas, Nevada,  Jan 17, 2000

I'm going to just start out by asking some questions and just a little bit about you. Now, how old are you Jayce?

Twenty-four.

Twenty-four. How long have you known or dealt with the fact that you're gay?

I've always known, you know. You just always know.

From [when you were] very little?

My earliest memories are just knowing that I was different.

So, we feel that differentness. How is it that you got connected with reparative therapy?

The very first time I ever told a religious leader that I maybe had inappropriate feelings–because that's what they were labeled–I was 18. And he said, "Don't worry about it. You haven't done anything wrong. You haven't acted upon it. Juts date a lot a more."

He said to do what?

Date more.

Date more. Date girls more?

Uh-huh. And he gave me a book. Actually, I think I was 17. I was a senior in high school. And in the book it basically said that the reason why [I was gay was because of] an overbearing mother and a very distant father. It kind of made me believe that maybe that was true in my case.

So what he tried to lay on it was pretty much what they still continue to do–the myth of dysfunctional family. So, this was about six years ago now?

Um, hm. My family's quite dysfunctional, so I thought, "Well, maybe this is why [I'm gay]."

And, of course, all families are dysfunctional in some way!

Well, yeah. My parents are divorced. My dad lives in Las Vegas and my mother lives in back in Montana. And I was living in Montana at the time. The book said if you really worked on your relationship with your father, you could overcome this easily. So the day after graduation I moved to Las Vegas so I could spend time with my dad and try, you know, to make our relationship stronger or whatever. But my dad and I have never really gotten along, we've never been real close. We've always been very distant. And so as much as I would try and as much as he would try we never came together. And so we got into a big fight, my father and I, and I moved back to Montana and I thought that I had it all under control, and then I decided to go to school in Utah. I was an RA there, which is like a hall director for a floor of a dormitory.

And what school was this?

Weaver State University.

And one of the other guys who was an RA and I would kind of ... . There were sparks. He was openly gay and that really intrigued me. He would give me gifts and talk to me. Then one night, late at night, we had this kiss and I just freaked out. The next day [I] went to my bishop and he gave me a [telephone] number of somebody down in Salt Lake City with Evergreen International, which is a support group for people trying to overcome their SSA which is, you know, is same-sex attraction.

And when I went there I went to this meeting with this one counselor and he gave me a number of somebody to call that I had to be really discreet about, down in Provo. And so I called him and he had me come down to Provo and meet with him and we talked. We had a two-hour long counseling session. We talked about lack of a strong relationship with my father and the very strong mother figure and he told me that there was a program that we had to be very secretive about, that if I truly wanted to overcome my same-sex attraction that I could participate in, but that it was gonna cost about five, six thousand dollars. But I could do it. I was a candidate for it or whatever, that I qualified.

What were this man's qualifications? Was he a psychologist, was he a social worker? Do you know?

I'm pretty sure he was a psychologist.

A psychologist. OK.

So I drove back to Ogden and really thought about it, prayed about it. I went to my bishop and asked 'im what he thought I should do without giving him much detail because I was told, you know, this needs to be maintained in the strictest confidence and I couldn't even really explain it to my bishop, [and] especially not my family or friends. He said, "Well, pray about it. And if you think it can help you might as well do it." And I had savings for college and so I cashed in all my savings bonds and I went back to Provo. [pauses] This is kind of ... .

It's hard.

Yeah. This is the first time I ever talked about it.

Let your feelings out. What are you feeling right now, Jayce?

Just anger.

Anger?

You know. It just ... . You know, they promised me this'll work. "You'll be fine." And all your life being raised Mormon you're taught the only way to be a valid person is to be a father and have kids and be married and that's what I wanted so desperately. And to go through all that and not have it work.

And did you indeed spend that sum of money on it?

I spent every dollar I had saved for college.

Six thousand dollars?

Um, hm. Actually, it ended up to be about nine thousand dollars all together. And so I went back to Provo and I would go once a week for the first month. At first we would just talk.

Under the auspices of what group, Jayce?

There was no name attached to it. It was just the Program.

And it was run by whom? The psychologist?

It was at BYU [Brigham Young University].

Oh, it was at BYU.

Uh, huh. But I had to sign waivers that I would never, ever discuss this. That if anything went wrong I was liable and no one else. The church would not be liable, BYU would not be liable, that this professor would not be liable. That I did this of my own volition.

So, there was a professor at BYU?

Um, hm.

And would you care to identify who that person was?

[long pause] Um, his name is Michael Keats. But I don't know that that's his real name. 'Cause I was told not to give my real name.

Do you know what he taught at BYU?

I think he was a professor of psychology.

Psychology?

Um, hm. And the program was called aversion therapy.

And what did they do in this program of aversion therapy?

He had me go into Salt Lake City and go to an adult bookstore and find pornography that I found erotic, or whatever. And then I had to bring it back to him and he ... . I don't know if it was a BYU photo lab or what, but [the pornography] was turned into slides and then they would put electrodes first on my hands–and I have burns.

You have burns on your hands? Oh, I see those burns.

That's from those. And then they're on my arm and my torso. At first.

What year was this, Jayce? Give me a time frame.

It was '94, the last five, six months of 1994.

[long pause] At first we didn't use the slides or any visual type of stimulation. He just told me to fantasize. And as I was trying to fantasize or whatever, trying to do what he wanted me to do, randomly they would send shocks. And that happened for, like, the first three weeks. And that was about six sessions. And then the slides were ready.

OK, let me see if I understand this. You were told to fantasize male-male eroticism?

Uh, huh.

And then they would send random shocks into your body which caused these scars on your body and on your hands?

Um, hm.

OK. And then what?

[long pause] Then there would be slides. [long pause] There were more electrodes this time and they were on ... . [pause] This is kind of embarrassing. [pause] I mean, they were all ... . I was in a position where they could tell if I was being aroused or not. It was very obvious. And then if there was any kind of arousal whatsoever I would be shocked. And then that happened for about two months.

OK. I'm gonna to ask you a really personal question. Did they also have an electrode on your penis?

Um, hm.

And is there scar tissue there?

Uh, huh. [long pause]

That happened for at least eight sessions. Probably actually about sixteen because it was two months that we did just that form. And then the electrodes were all [in] the same places, but then I had the control that when I was being shocked I could press this plunger or button or whatever and a picture of a woman would come up and the electrodes would stop.

OK. Now, this took place on BYU property?

Um, hm.

OK. Where at? Do you know?

It's the Smith Family Living Center. It was in the basement.

In the basement?

Um, hm.

At BYU?

Um, hm.

The last two months, that's what we would do. And that was only once a week. And then one day I was driving to Provo and I just couldn't get off the exit. I couldn't do it anymore. And so I just turned around and went back to Ogden and told my bishop that I was fine, that I was OK and he said, "If there's anything left, your mission will fix that." And so I left for my mission ... .

Which was where?

To Minnesota. I served there for about four months in missionary capacity before I became very physically ill. I think it was mostly the emotional trauma of everything that I'd gone through and still knowing that I was still gay, that I was still having these feelings about my companion that I was living with. And I couldn't do it anymore.

Jayce, let's talk about symptoms for a moment. Tell me about both the physical and psychological symptoms after you participated in this [aversive therapy] program.

Mostly just shame. 'Cause you're taught that [being gay] is the sin next to murder.

[Taught by] the church?

Uh, huh.

OK.

And, how unworthy you must be to still have these feelings and for God not to answer your prayers and your fasting ... . Not to fix you, you know? The burns ... . They basically, for the most part, healed. The biggest ones are right here [indicates his hands]. I can't even look at pornography without [becoming] physically ill. It just makes me want to throw up.

If you were to look at a pornographic picture now you become nauseous?

Uh, huh.

Any bad dreams, Jayce?

A lot of them.

Can you tell about your dreams?

[long pause, sigh]

I know this is hard.

This is going to sound ridiculous, but the one I had the most ... . It would be a very erotic dream and then all of a sudden I feel like I'm being electrocuted.

An erotic dream of a sequence between you and a man?

Uh, huh.

And then you feel like you're being electrocuted?

Uh, huh.

In the dream.

Uh, huh.

So the feelings are there as you're dreaming?

Uh, huh. That's the most common thing that happens. Although over the last four years that's gotten less and less. But still it's something that recurs. [long pause]. I don't know. That's the dream that stands out the most.

Are those dreams still recurring?

Um, hm.

OK. This is what I think. I mean, I'm just gonna throw this right into the tape. I want you to come back and see me again. Would you do that?

Uh, huh.

I think we need to work on this a little bit.

OK.

OK. And I think we need to set you free from these symptoms. To me, as a mental health practitioner, it's extremely disconcerting that you, as a young gay man, would be walking around with these symptoms. Are there times, Jayce, when you find yourself scanning the horizon or worrying about certain people you come in contact [with], or anything like that?

What do you mean?

[Do you have] an exaggerated startle response? Are there times you jump when you see certain things?

Actually, yeah.

Can you talk about that?

The first time I ever went into Get Booked I was with a really good friend. I think, actually, I was with Brian. I'd never been there before and we went around towards the back where the magazines are and I just saw a cover and I just had to leave. I couldn't be in that store. I just couldn't do it. I had to go outside and I just threw up.

We call that a conversion symptom. You saw the cover of the magazine, you went outside and threw up.

Uh, huh.

And, of course, the same- sex attraction never really went away?

No. No. Huh-uh. It's just gotten stronger.

Jayce, how is it that you've resolved all this for yourself in your mind, in your thinking?

Well, I don't know that it's all resolved. But I just ... . This March I was going to the temple twice a week and fasting once a week and praying and I talked to my bishop and he was, like, "You just need to get married and you'll be fine." And so I was engaged to marry this [past] June. And she knew everything. She knew that I was gay and that wasn't a problem for her. But I'd gone to the temple over and over and over again and I had just prayed and prayed, you know, "Take this from me and help me love her the way she deserves to be loved." And I had this overwhelming feeling in the temple that my heavenly father loved me the way I am, and I thought, "How can I get that?" 'Cause that's not what we're taught. That's obviously Satan, or whatever. And I went back and I got the same thing. And then I went back a third time. It was so overwhelmingly powerful for me that I realized, "You know what? God created me the way I am. And he doesn't make mistakes."

So, Jayce, you had a very profound spiritual experience.

Um, hm. Yeah.

That's good!

I told some Mormon friends and [they said], "I don't know how you could get that. But you got it in the temple." And we've always been taught that anything you get in the temple is true, it's pure, it's from God, and it's what you need to believe. And so I believe that. And I've really prayed hard that I could come to terms with who I am and understand that I'm OK. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting closer, you know. I'm trying really hard.

Right. That's right.

I feel I just had a profound experience and it really helped me tremendously.

So has that profound experience taken you maybe a little closer to reconciling yourself with being gay and having that faith [at the same time]?

Um, hm.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

I still really have strong ties to the church and I believe almost all of it and I've done a lot of research about the early teachings, what Joseph Smith taught, and he was very openly gay-friendly. And he was a wonderful person and I truly believe that he was a prophet and that, you know, he spoke for God. But when he died and Brigham Young took over, all hell broke loose. And we've gotten really far away from [Smith's] vision. So I really have a strong belief in the church, but I just think we've gotten off the straight and narrow path.

And so you're able to have some spiritual peace inside of you? In other words, whatever happens, happens, but you feel peaceful with yourself.

Um, hm.

That's great. That's great. I encourage you to keep doing the things that you need to do, that are taking you to that place. Obviously they're working.

A lot of my Mormon gay friends can't understand why I still work for the church and why I still go to church on Sunday. But, for me, that's still home. I still appreciate that.

Sure. But you have this inner reconciliation.

And it works for me. It obviously doesn't work for them and that's fine for them.

Anything else you need to tell me about this experience?

The most traumatic part I don't really think was the electrical part. The aversion therapy. I think going to individual therapy and having the therapist tell you that you can't do this to your family, that you're supposed to be a father.

So they're imposing guilt and shame on you?

Uh, huh. And you have all these spirit children who are waiting to come to earth and how are they going to come to earth if you're gay? If you can't procreate.

And this person was a psychologist?

Um, hm. Well, I think so. A counselor or something with Evergreen International. That, I think, for me, was the hardest part. Dealing with all that guilt that's put upon you and having them always reminding you that the only way to be a valid person is to be a father and a husband and somebody who procreates. And that's the only way to be saved, is if you're married.

So, Jayce, are you a valid person?

Um, hm.

Good. Indeed you are.

So that's been the hardest part to reconcile.

But you see yourself as valid?

Uh, huh.

Good. Because indeed, you are.

Jayce, do you have any idea [if] these things are still happening there?

Oh, yeah.

They are? At BYU?

Uh, huh. I have some really good friends who've gone to the program recently.

It's electric shock and they're still doing it?

Um, hm.

And is that connected with Evergreen International?

No, they're separate. They're separate.
 
 

They're separate? Tell me about that. Does Evergreen International make the referral to that separate program?

That's how I got the referral.

From Evergreen?

But I don't think that they do that anymore. I really don't.

They don't do what anymore, Jayce?

Make that referral.

Evergreen doesn't?

Uh, huh. But somehow, the word is still getting out that there's a program there [at BYU].

And it's electroshock?

Uh, huh.

And, so, how recently have you heard about it?

I know it was within the last two years.

Within the last two years. So that is still occurring on the campus of Brigham Young University?

I believe that's it's still going on now. I know it is. Because my friend, Jimmy, who went through Evergreen, he's, like, "No, that doesn't happen anymore." A lot of people think that that's been stopped. But how secretive it was. I'm pretty sure the doctor didn't give me his real name.

So you've heard about it within the past two years?

Um, hm.

It's still happening?

Um, hm. I know it is. It is.

It's interesting. I've heard that, too. But, actually, you're the first person that's been able to substantiate the fact that it's happening within the past two years.

What type of methodologies does Evergreen International use as far as helping people to move away from being gay?

Well, first of all you have to separate yourself from anything and everything that's gay. Do not discuss it with your family, with anyone. You gotta keep it within yourself. Mostly it's prayer, fasting, and group therapy.

Group therapy by who?

Evergreen sponsors groups all throughout the U. S. Actually, throughout whatever. They say the world. I'm not sure that is. They used to have a group here in Vegas. [Those who go] have either claimed to be cured or fallen deeply into homosexuality or whatever. They have annual conferences.

Where do they have their conferences at?

This year they had it at the Joseph Smith Memorial, which is owned by the [Mormon] church.

[At] BYU?

No, it's actually at church headquarters in Salt Lake City.

And that's the same place they did the electroshock?

No, no. BYU is where the electroshock therapy was. The Evergreen conferences either happen in LDS chapels or right at church headquarters. I have their most recent ... . This just came in the mail the other day. They ask me for money, of course. And then there's a report of their conference.

Is this something that I could have?

Uh, huh.

I appreciate it very, very much.

I think Evergreen ... . Their intentions are pure. In our Mormon subculture they're really trying to do what they think is right. And they really have moved away from the aversion therapy.

What do they tell you to do with feelings about being gay, other than isolate it inside yourself? What else?

Well, they keep saying that if you work on your relationship with your father that [the feelings] will not necessarily disappear, but they will just become less and less.

While the tape is on, I feel that I need to help with this myth. One of the reasons I think we, as gay men, have difficulty connecting with our fathers is because we are gay. The reason we have difficulty relating with our fathers is because [we're] a gay person trying to create connection points with a straight person. [But your church] says that it's the relationship and the lack of connection points that causes gay. And what I say as a therapist is that it's being gay that causes the lack of connection points with the father. It's just the opposite of what [your church] says. They don't get it and they don't want to get it. They've chosen a position and that's what it is. But it's very hard for a young gay child to relate to a heterosexual father because you don't want to do anything that they want you to do. Your tastes are different.

Exactly!

And so they have it opposite. They think it's that lack of inter-relating that makes gay, when it's gay that makes that lack of inter-relating. And that's very sad because they're deluding and harming an awful lot of people with this false position.

Yeah, they are.

My brother, who's also gay, he's been to Evergreen. But I don't think he's done aversion [therapy]. Right now he's on his mission to Singapore. We have so many similarities in the fact that I thought that I was cured before my mission, and that's where he's at right now. And I just worry that when he comes back he's going to try really hard and maybe even go through the aversion thing. And that's really the biggest motivation for me to talk to you today because I don't want that to happen to him.

OK. You've been very, very helpful.

Anything else you need to add?

I really worry about all the Mormon kids who are taught to believe that they're not valid. And how wrong that is. And how often it is that when it comes out to your family, how they walk away from you. And that's been the case for me.

Once you tell your family, there's an alienation that occurs? And that alienation is supported by the church?

I don't know that it's necessarily supported by the church, but by our [Mormon] culture. You have to differentiate. They're not one and the same exactly.

[But] families end up being separated?

Um, hm.

In July, when my family figured out that I really was homosexual–my dad and step mom, at least ... . She used to have contact with me and [has now] made it really difficult for me to see my siblings because they're worried that ... . I don't know what they're worried about.

They're afraid it's contagious.

That's it's contagious. And, well, if they really knew that they have a[nother] gay son and my sister, who claims to be bisexual ... . Maybe it is contagious. I don't think so.

It may be genetic.

Genetic, right.

What's that feel like to have that [alienation] happen to you?

It's hard, you know. This Christmas was really hard. And Thanksgiving was not easy. This is the first time I've ever been alienated [from] them. But, you know ... .

What helps you to go on? What gives you hope?

I have a really good mom. I really do.

Step mom?

No.

Your real mom.

Yeah. She's wonderful. And she's not Mormon, God bless her, because that's the only thing that's kept me sane. When you don't have any options you just have to go forward, you know. And I just have hope that one day they'll realize that they're wrong. But I've never been really close to my father, anyway. The hardest part is just being separated from my sisters. But when they turn 18 they're not going to walk away from me. It's been really hard on them, the separation. They've always looked to me as a friend and a father figure because my father's not been there for any of us.

I want to ask you a question. I've heard reports lately of young gay men going into LDS Social Services here in Las Vegas and also being counseled in regard to changing their sexual orientation. Is that true?

Uh, huh. My best friend, Phil ... . And that's a whole 'nother story in itself. He recently had gone there. 

[Who is] this the person [at LDS Social Services] that's doing it? What is his name?

Rick Perry.

And he's the head of LDS Social Services?

I'm pretty sure he's the director here in the [Las Vegas] valley.

Is he doing the reparative therapy here?

[pause] Yeah. I mean, he's a nice man. But, yeah.

He's the one that Phil is seeing?

Well, Phil had seen him. But I tried to prevent him going back there again.

And when they do the reparative here [at the LDS Social Services in Las Vegas] how do they do it?

When I was seeing [Perry] here he was mostly just talking about my childhood–there's a lot of trauma there. Talking about my relationship with my father. Basically, that's [Perry's] big push, that if you work on your relationship with your father you'll be fine. If you don't act upon your gay [feelings].

They tell you not to act on your gay feelings. How are you supposed to do that? By what methods?

Well, you've always been taught that sacrifice ... . There's great honor in it.

So what are you told to do with those feelings?

Just not act upon them and try to date girls and try to be physical with girls. Which is kind of a paradox, because all our lives we've been taught that chastity is so important and you should barely even kiss before you get married, let alone anything else.

But if you're gay it's OK to go the whole way?

Yeah. Exactly. And we've all tried. And it doesn't work.

So it is happening here in Vegas up to the present time, and this is January 17, 2000.

Um, hm. Yeah.

What are your feelings when you know that?

It makes me so mad.

Why?

Because they are stunting these people's potential.

They're stunting these people's potential? Explain how.

When you have to put all your efforts into trying to overcome your homosexuality, you can't focus on anything else. You can't get through school, your relationships with other people become second fiddle because you have this one goal. And if you never are able to achieve it, and yet you're always constantly working on it ... . I just .. . I'm just not well for that. And it's been a problem for me. Up until recently I haven't been able to focus on school or anything because I've had this one goal. And you're told that there's honor in working on that one goal because that will make you a valid Mormon person, a valid, normal person.

Let's follow that thought a little bit more. What if you don't ascribe? What if you don't do it? What are the consequences then?

Well, if you act upon [your gay feelings] you will be excommunicated. Generally, your family will walk away from you. You won't be saved, you won't receive exaltation.

So there's a spiritual threat?

Uh, huh. It's damnation. It's the sin second to murder. So there's a lot of consequences.

And they're scary consequences.

They are. Your whole life you're raised to believe this one way of thinking and that all other ways of thinking are wrong. And no matter how much [other people] try to tell you that they're right, you know that they're wrong. There's the underlying [belief], "We are the only true way and everyone else will try to convince you otherwise, but be careful and avoid all other things. Don't mingle with outsiders." There's a lot of mind control going on.

Can you talk about that? Mind control. In what way, Jayce?

I think that you're tainted when you try to look at other ways of thinking.

Or you're told that it's not OK to look at other ways of thinking?

Uh, huh. And if you do, you're looking at it from a perspective of trying to figure out how that's wrong. Comparing it to our way of thinking, pulling it apart and making it wrong. You don't really have a lot of capacity to see other ways, to see other options. And to accept yourself is not an option. To think that maybe you were born that way and there's no way to change and you should just be OK with yourself. That's not an option.

What do you think, Jayce?

Well, I know that's wrong.

When you say that's wrong, does that mean that you believe you were born that way?

I was born that way. I was